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Firearms Education, some people should get some
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S.T.A.R.S. Armourer
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ask and ye shall receive. Here it is. They took 10 years to admit that the fucking shoelace was not a machine gun. Course, they DID convict someone of having a machine gun because he had the shoe string.So don't be too shocked about the airsoft gun. These people will send you to Federal fuck your ass Prison over a shoe lace, or some washers they said you were gonna make a suppressor out of, or for a missing half inch piece of wood or steel.

Believe that, playa.




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CavWarrior
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unbelievable. It only took them eight years to determine that a shoestring itself is not a machinegun. This would be so laughable if it wasn't used to ruin a life. Now it's simply pathetic. The lengths the government will go to to try to make a case against a citizen is scary.
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S.T.A.R.S. Armourer
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes it really is. So is their actual behavior when dealing with the citizen is also pretty scary.

And don't forget the ATF are tax men. When they dress up like ninjas and raid a guy over a machine gun, the issue is not that he owns a machine gun. They come toss his house, abuse his family, and act like Nazis over a $200 tax! Same for a barrel thats a hair too short or a stock with some wood cut off over it. Its goddamn $200 tax. You can face 10 years in the Pen and a $10,000 fine for it.

I have a picture of the evil shoestring machine gun and they actually put a metal plate bearing a serial number on it.
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RedJacketMan
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did they arrest the guy for having a shoelace, or for attaching the shoelace to a rifle and turning it into a machine gun?
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S.T.A.R.S. Armourer
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Technically they arrested him the shoelace. As it was the shoelace itself they declared a machine gun.

But bear in mind having a machine gun is not illegal at all.

The only way it is legal to prosecute someone for owning a machine gun is if they didn't pay the $200 tax stamp that comes with owning one. Same with all the other firearms that fall into NFA ruling and are not covered by the Second Amendment, like a short barreled shotgun, short barreled rifle, etc.

And make no practical difference in the performance of the gun.

Sure, you need a Sheriff to sign off on the machine gun as well but that doesn't change the fact that its a TAX law, and people go to prison for a shoelace over a $200 tax law.

Further, ANY semi auto can be bump fired. That is, using the recoil of the weapon to reset the trigger sear, and fire at the rate of a machine gun. It is also legal to do. Look at the designs and gadgets like Hellfire and Triburst. Those do the same job as the shoelace and are legal.

You can also bump fire a semi with just your finger.

Hope that answers your question, Red. In summary, a man was convicted of having a shoestring and it was called a machine gun, and a $200 tax stamp can ruin your life.



Here's another fun ATF fact. They have no standard in testing semi automatic firearms. One team might give one to a qualified gunsmith with a machine shop like me and let him dick with it for 8 hours. Another team might spend 15 minutes filing a sear by hand.

And they continually refuse to allow their testing to be documented.
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RedJacketMan
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, that did answer my question.
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S.T.A.R.S. Armourer
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right on.

If you ever want to read up on why machine gun laws are the way they are, like all of the NFA guns, and how screwed up the law is, reseach the Miller case, in I think 1934.

The only reason NFA guns like short barreled rifles and shotguns are not treated like any other guns is because the Government needed income and decided a $200 tax was the perfect way to get that cash. They would call it a bailout today. The country was awash with short barreled rifles and shotguns. All of a sudden it became a crime for people to own them, even if they were just a half inch too short. Same with machine guns.

Now imagine that eh.

A $200 tax on a gun worth $5. Its true, under the price of guns and worth of money in the 1930`s.

Anyway, a couple hillbillies were arrested while moonshining, and one had a sawed off double barrel that was too short to be legal under the new law. They were tried, and faced 5 years in prison!! For a barrel!

But they won, by proving that short barreled shotguns were indeed useful as militia weapons and thus covered by the second amendment.

Later, this went before the Supreme Court for appeals and the hillbillies, facing 5 years in prison, just didn`t show up. Can`t blame em.

With no defense present, all the Supreme Court heard was the Fed`s arguement that short barreled firearms have no place in military usage. Which is complete and utter bullshit, but hey there was no defense, was there!

And thats why NFA law is what it is today.
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CavWarrior
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

U.S. v. Miller (1939). The first time the USSC directly addressed teh Second Amendment.
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S.T.A.R.S. Armourer
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats the one. And they addressed it alright...without even a defense present.
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CavWarrior
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup, Miller's counsel couldn't afford the trip. The real bitch about the case is that it didn't involve a MG but a sawed off Stevens double shottie, the barrels less than 18". The one precedent the Miller decision set that's never been challenged in the court is what weapon consitiutes "some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia..." and the if the militia were called "these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time." It could be reasonably argued that select fire weapons AKA assault rifles are the kind in common use and therefore should be available for civilian sale. Also, the short barreled shotguns were actually in use by the military. The judges had no way of knowing this because no defense counsel was present for counter argument.
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S.T.A.R.S. Armourer
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not too sure on if Miller and Layton really couldn't afford legal counsel, or if they had just dodged a bullet once and weren't gonna go back and do it again.

Before the Supreme Court case, they actually won in District Court in Arkansas. Had they lost, they were facing 5 years in prison and a $2000 fine. An outrageous sum of money in the 1930's, especially for two mountain men.

Their lawyer, Paul Gutensohn, presented a case in District Court that said the NFA was a Federal power grab that took rightful power away from State police, and that short barreled rifles and shotguns have a very historical martial context. And they won.

The Feds reversed the decision and sent it to the Supreme Court.

Now I don't know...but having already escaped 5 years in the pen and a $2000 fine, I have a feeling that Miller and Layton just didn't show. Just my conjecture though.

Shows that even 70 years ago, Americans could be chucked in prison for a non-crime that hurt no one, stole from no one, and infringed upon no ones rights.


And the fact the SC rendered decision upon only the Federal Govt's arguement and no opposition is damn near criminal.


Course today, an NFA violation can net you 10 years in prison, with a fine of $100,000 to $250,000, possibly per infraction!!
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CavWarrior
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miller simply didn't show if memory serves. he was killed before the SC decision was handed down. The counselor never made it due to lack of finances and some "procedural irregularities". Not sure what those were exactely.
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bloxvf
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don’t Shoot Your Grass

According to this CBS News Article, New York allows assault rifle possession, but limits its use for home and property protection. A man noticed several gang members (probably MS-13) in his driveway and asked them to leave. When the man brandished his AK-47, the gang bangers summoned 20 other members and dared him to use his weapon. One of them also threatened him (surprise, surprise) and his family, shouting:

“Oh you’re dead. I’m gonna kill your family and your babies. You’re dead.”

Feeling threatened, the man fired warning shots into his lawn, an action that the police regard as “reckless endangerment” of human life. Not surprisingly, his lawyer disagrees–and the man will have his day in court.

The question in my mind is: who should be educated here, the citizen for firing his weapon without one being pointed at him, or the government for over-reacting to warning shots into the ground?
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RedJacketMan
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the guy was not intending to harm anybody, but he was firing at someone who was not pointing a gun at him. But then again, he was being threathened, so that counts for something...
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Cyberdude78
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If he was firing warning shots into his lawn then he wasn't firing at anyone. With twenty five possible MS-13 members on my property threatening his life and family, a warning shot is pretty damn polite.
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